Recently I became involved in a discussion about dog training methodology with friends and members of the CAPPDT. I felt compelled to write this post, hopefully I did it without judgement. I know I have addressed this topic many times in the past but it certainly is worth more than one look.
Do you know why someone would train a dog with force and intimidation if they thought it wasn’t necessary?
The answer is…I don’t think anyone would.
Clicker Freaks
Regardless of anyone’s choice of training methodology, we are all united by our love of dogs. Think about it, if you love dogs but train with force, you absolutely must be armed with a litany of reasons why you believe force is necessary in order to satisfy that whispering little voice in your subconscious mind that keeps asking you “. . . what if all of those tree hugging, clicker freaks are onto something?”
Imagine if there existed a world where you can train a dog to do anything you desire; be the most amazing family pet you ever knew – better than any dog you have ever owned in the past, accomplish all of your dog training goals and do it in half the time it has taken you in the past; all without ever physically correcting the dog, or losing your temper while training . . . wouldn’t you want in?
Some of us live and thrive in such a dog training world. A place where dogs are neither blamed nor verbally or physically corrected. Yes, this world does exist. It doesn’t matter if you train competitive field dogs or bad-ass family pets; training this way IS a possibility for all.
It’s Not The Dog…
Perhaps you have seen others try to train without corrections and their dog was poorly behaved, it wouldn’t listen in the face of any distraction and their heeling in obedience could only be described as “sloppy” at best. Just because someone has tried and failed at “food only” training in the past doesn’t mean the “method is flawed” please entertain the possibility that the application of the dog training was the only thing that was flawed.
I know for me, my education is limited, my focus in dog training has been on what I love; creating an amazing family pet first, great agility, obedience or flyball dog next. So I don’t have all of the answers to every dog training problem. But I know there are many others out there that are also digging hard to find “a better way” in all areas of dog training. I also know that most of the methodology I use does transfer brilliantly to most, if not all areas of dog, horse, cat or even children training.
Geeking Out Dog Training
The following chart summarizes dog training as I see it. (Note: I recognize this does not take into consideration dogs with severe behavioural disorders but rather addresses the masses that we see every day in the world of dog training). Knowing that dogs learn through reinforcement, reinforcement is the key to all training. When people lose control of what reinforces the dog the only thing left is punishment. It is one or the other. As I see it, for the untrained dog, the need for punishment increases as the uncontrolled access to reinforcement increases.
Over the past twenty years I have been looking at dog training in this way, I feel there are two keys.
Key Number One:
The better you are at controlling reinforcement, the less you will need punishment in training.
In order to train to a high level of success in dog training, reinforcement is a key requirement. Dogs learn through reinforcement. If the dog has been allowed to continuously find reinforcement in ways that builds undesirable behaviours, then you either have to find something more rewarding (which may not be possible) or punish. No other options really. So here is what excites me;
The more creative you can become at developing, redirecting and controlling the reinforcement, the less you need punishment.
I choose to train with no physical or verbal corrections, therefore, I must be brilliant at knowing and controlling my dog’s reinforcement. It is an ongoing journey of discovery for me.
At one end of the punishment spectrum is the mildest form of punishment, that is simply withholding a reward when you don’t like what your dog is doing.
At the other end of the punishment spectrum would be considered abuse. Severe, life altering pain meant to create fear and completely shut down behaviour.
I think we can agree that no dog training program would promote punishment on this scale as a routine part of life. Generally speaking “traditional dog training” would punish on a level somewhere in between these two points, it would be fair to say every school would dictate their own tolerance or definition.
By training this way you can be sloppy with your awareness of what reinforces a dog. It just isn’t that important because you can fall back on trying to control the dog (through punishment) rather than teach the dog self control and to ignore all reinforcement that isn’t directed from you.
Now let’s examine what I mean by “access to amazing reinforcement.” On the low end, is a dog that lives in a way as I describe in my book “Ruff Love.” The dog earns all of his reinforcement and that reinforcement comes only through the owner. Now obviously this isn’t entirely possible as your dog will earn reinforcement from any person that pats him on the head or when he takes a drink of water in the kitchen. That is why, for my purposes, I see controlling access to “amazing” reinforcement as most important in particularly what your dog thinks is “amazing.”
At the far end of this “amazing reinforcement” scale is the dog that lives in a world without rules. This is a dog that steals food, toys, chases other dogs, squirrels or cats at will, barks non-stop to get what he wants, raids the garbage, the kitchen counter and of course, can be seen pulling the owner down the street on leash or knocking over the guests at the front door . . . you get the picture.
So what all this means is that if you think some level of “Ruff Love is too much work” you will be needing punishment to accomplish your dog training goals.
The better you are at controlling reinforcement, the less you will need punishment to train a dog.
Yes it is as simple as that, as Bob Bailey says . . “simple but not always easy!”
Key Number 2
The last key to training this way is that the reinforcement is used. Effective and efficient training has all reinforcement used as rewards rather than lures. The dog should be able to ignore all reinforcement until a time when it is earned. While training this way all amazing reinforcement has its origin as first an amazing distraction to the dog.
A Training Challenge
I put together this video clip to show some examples of what is possible. You can have three choices. You can obviously choose to not watch it:), you can watch it thinking “ya but this is a professional dog trainer” or “ya but this is a Border Collie” or “ya but this is an agility dog, or “this won’t work in my _______classes” (fill in the blank with Pet Dog or Hunting Dog etc) OR you can just watch this clip with an open mind to endless possibilities.
If you are currently a well-respected dog trainer that is using force because you feel you are working in a special “niche” that requires more muscle than what many of us are using, why not take my challenge. Become one of your industry pioneers. Do what others don’t believe can be done.
Think possibilities not limits.
Be the change your dog world is waiting for (even if they may not know it yet!).
Today I am grateful for all of you that will read this and dare to go against tradition and to look for a better way for your dogs and your students.
I agree with you! keep up the great work.
I love this post! And I like that even the opposing comments are being kept respectful. That’s nice to see. As someone who converted to positive training after the very first class in which I was instructed to use a choke chain on my dog almost 11 years ago, it is gratifying to see how far we have all come. Now, as a parent, I can see that the world of parenting is far behind the world of dog training when it comes to being positive. I’m so glad that I learned about positive training before I had my son. Let me tell you that if this was a parenting blog, the feedback would not have been so civilized! 🙂 The mommy wars wage on, but the dog trainers are striving to understand each other better and that makes me happy. I’ll keep being positive with my dogs (I’m up to four of those now) and my son and hope that my example rubs off on some people along the way. You are a great inspiration, Susan!
And, I almost wish that I did field training with my Labs, because I’d love to be the first one to train a gun dog positively. maybe I’ll try it with my Beagle! Now that would be something!!
I appreciate where you coming from, Susan, and am certainly in your camp.
However, rather than showing the final product of your training in the video, it would be more instructive for your to show what you did when Swagger did NOT perform as asked.
Also, I believe it is a bit misleading to say no corrections should be used in training. We all use them and need them in order to give the dog information about what we do and do not want, but I think most of us who rely mainly on the use of P+, also use negative punishment a lot. Negative punishment is in fact a correction.
Another way to approach this topic, which is certainly a valuable one to dialogue about, is to define “correction” at the onset as positive punishment, and perhaps even further describe the types acceptable to you and those which are not.
@Mare I think I do show 2 examples of what I do when Swagger making a poor choice in this video. I think you can find more examples by reading this blog, and checking out my my youtube site, or becoming a member of PuppyPeaks program.
As I have been saying, I don’t use physical or verbal corrections in training — occasionally I do use neg punishment (in the form of a time out) but I find the better I become reinforcement training the less and less I have to use even that!
I used to believe that verbal or physical corrections were necessary for training as I also have a dog with several “issues” and did not see how things can be achieved simply by rewards & reinforcements. I was even skeptical about your methods in the beginning, thinking it would never be possible or achievable.
Frankly I had to read your book (several times), articles, blogs, watched videos and attended one of her seminar before I started to understand and realize the power behind “do-land” and the concept behind it.
I had always blamed my dog for his “issues” but now I know that it was the way, when and how I had applied reinforcements that makes the difference to achieving the outcome I want in my dog. I had been the source of his “issues”. I just wished I had known this 5 years earlier when he was at his prime training for agility, I know he would’ve been an awesome dog as he had shown potential but I think my lack of knowledge totally destroyed the champion he could be. Now he just gets to be a good home pet and living the rest of his years out being happy.
Nevertheless I look forward to my next agility champion wanabe (lol) using the wealth of information I have gained from Susan and her methods – simple, but not always easy 🙂 Nevertheless, I’m sure I’ll enjoy it.
I am enjoying this whole e learning. So much less expensive than driving for hours. I entered dogs and training in 68 with my first GSD. Yes the old yank and crank training was the only mode. Yet I followed Dr Spocks methods for training my kids. It was not based on freedom to become little tyrants. It was behavior shaping. Slowly I applied it to my dogs. Fast fw to now and though the verbal reprimand does escape I am learning to control this default setting. Of note the MNR and OPP used coercive training for years, still do to a point but have added the reward of play, with big kong. They did use an Australian Shepherd but they are not Labs nor 2×4 dogs so they found them not suitable to the “program” one size fits all training. They have learned though. I was crossing into the US and they had a Mal. on a chain just lugging away sniffing cars, I so wanted to stand up and tell the guy to quit ruining the dogs throat and to either go to a harness or train the dog. His supervisor was there too. The dog targeted on the side of my van with a big paw swipe (grrr) and then they laughed as they could see my dog crates and moved on. Obviously the US trainers have not learned to train past other dog distractions nor do they see value in reward based training. I judge obedience in ASCA and I still see many yank and crank training. My dogs love your videos, as they get so reved with your voice and clickers, lol Well I love em too. Thanks for this program. You all put much thought into your answers and vedeos. Loved how even you can make mistakes in the DWDH section on puppypeaks.
Hi Susan do you hand feed your puppys ?I have two puppys and I hand feed at times,should I be hand feeding all the time? They are the same age as Swagger…
I’m currently reading the book, “Merle’s Door”. It is the total antithesis of “Ruff Love”. Rather a mind-bending experience to read that book and read this blog at the same time.
I’ve yet to decide where on the continuum of access to reinforcements I want my dogs to live. (Maybe I’m still trying to decide how well trained I want my dogs?)
I want my dogs to have a rich and stimulating life, and to be dogs. They certainly can’t have the freedom of Merle, but life with no access to self-selected and self-obtainted reinforcers sounds like no fun at all for the dog.
In my opinion, so many people incorrectly interpret the Ruff Love philosophy in this way.
To me, it’s not about making sure that you are ALWAYS the only thing that your dog finds reinforcing or that your dog is never allowed to reinforce himself – it’s about understanding what your dog finds reinforcing, and using that understanding to change his behavior.
This post is about controlling access to reinforcement as a preferable alternative to using punishment. “Controlling access to reinforcement” can absolutely mean “Hey dog, I love what you’re doing right now, here’s the opportunity to access any reinforcement in the environment you want! Run, chase squirrels, sniff trees, have a party” but it can also mean “Uh oh, dog, I really dislike the behaviors you’re giving me right now. I’m not going to give you any opportunities to reinforce them – instead, we’ll switch gears, and I’m going to give you the opportunity to reinforce the behaviors I like!”
It kills me a little every time I see someone describe Do-Land as “no fun at all for the dog.” It is the complete opposite of that.
I guess my point is that where you and your dog are at on the continuum of access to reinforcements shouldn’t be a constant – it’s a variable that’s constantly changing based on what your dog needs to learn and, most importantly, to find joy in living and working with you.
Ali – very well said and well explained !!!
I must admit that when I first bought and read Ruff Love several years ago I had that attitude. Even going through it a number of times (and knowing the results that Susan gets with her dogs) I still thought that “regular people” have no hope of following that protocol and having any success with it.
After joining recallers 1 and then 2 I’m developing a much better understanding of the process. The blog is a godsend too and this post is fabulous.
@Jean – I too would love to find some resources for herding with positive methods. Is there anyone that can help? Or does anyone at Say Yes have any thoughts please?
Btw, I think that Susan’s dogs’ brilliance and the improvement in my dogs’ understanding, accuracy and happiness speak volumes for her methods.
Anyone know of resources for herding with positive methods?
Forbes http://www.glenerran.com/, and Sue Jewell [email protected]
south of Barrie.
Kathy Warner R.R#1
Welland, Ontario
905 384-2531
[email protected]
website http://www.teecreek.com
Tracy Carlton is in MI near Sarnia.
http://www.comebysecondchanceranch.com/page4/page4.html
Jean,
Carolyn Wilke, located in Pennsylvania, uses R+/clicker markers and a lot of different games to train herding. I’ve been to one of her seminars, and was impressed. However, it’s difficult to implement if you don’t have your own sheep and setup. Nevertheless, I’m actively involved in training my young BC to herd, as well as training agility, and am always questioning how to increase learning while minimizing punishment.
Quite honestly, I feel that the vast majority of punishment used, especially by the best trainers, takes the form of P-, i.e., dog does not do what we want, dives into the sheep on a flank, etc., we block the dog, denying access to the sheep. When the dog stays out on the flank, he gets access to the sheep and gets to work them, as long as he follows our plan. The problem seems to be, in my opinion anyway, is that the balance is in favor of a lot of P-, and not as much R+, at least in numbers. The fact that it’s as successful as it is for so many dogs must lie in the extremely high value of the R+. I have, however, had a wonderful BC basically shut down in herding, flat out refused to take a flank, cling to my leg and not leave me. There was a connection to a herding instructor that I had been working with, who was a believer in dominance, but she had really never done anything to him; yet, he was suddenly very fearful in her presence. I attributed his shut down to the imbalance of P-, without clear communication to him how to earn his reinforcement; basically, I sucked as a trainer, and I saw his behaviour as learned helplessness. I still wasn’t clear as to why this suddenly happened when it did; just prior to that, he had been doing a fantastic job, we had just attended a clinic and we did a great job of starting to learn a couple of new skills. Fortunately I did find another instructor who recognized his fear, said it didn’t matter what caused it, and worked with me on building up his confidence again. He came back, found joy in working sheep again, and thank God I have his last two herding ventures on tape, as he was tragically hit by a car and killed a few months later.
Sorry for the novel, but bottom line is I’m always viewing everything we do while training herding in terms of what is the dog learning, and how successful am I in showing him what I want. I do think that the very successful trainers, in spite of the fact that they will state that you MUST show your dog that you are the leader and MUST at times use P+, really do use very little P+; they do set the dogs up for success, and they rarely need P+, and are even able to limit their use of P-.
Susan, your graph (combined with your blog) makes perfect sense to me.
I am still relatively new to dog training, having owned dogs for the past 13 years, but in all those years I have never ever used verbal or physical punishment on my dogs. In no way have I got it right and I am still on a very steep learning curve. However, the more people that can buy into this method of training the better.
Long may ‘Do Land’ continue to propser.
Barb, you might like to join the positive gundog yahoo list, there are successful people out there and it can be done. It all comes down to the same training principles as Susan uses, gun dog, SAR dog,… if the basics fit, value,… It works.
Christine and the three FT line SAR and gun dog chessies
Christine,
yes I have already joined the positive gundog list, but no I am still not convinced that I can have a reliable gundog with no punishment.
Susan, yes I have used the “bird factor” to my advantage in agility as my older boys reward after a run was retrieving a frozen pheasant wing. I am not about to restrict access to wild birds (not even really possible)-we do restrict access to penned birds-through traps and check-cords. Skills are taught using clickers, treats, puishment is used if I am told where to go and how to get there by my dogs. I very rarely have to use a collar correction, but I choose to have that option available to me.
This is why I would love to see experts in various fields come together. No I am not advocating an ecollar or prong collar for agility, but yes I think “clicker freaks” have swung too far in not respecting powerful tools for situations where they are warrented. I guess for now, all parties are too far apart to come together.
Feel free to take a look at the work of George Hickox who uses both clickers and ecollars to train gundogs
http://www.georgehickox.com/articles/electronic-dog-training.pdf
What Barb (the person with the full trainer’s toolbox) said, +1!!!
I’m blown away by the number of people I’ve met who’ve trained one or a few dogs of biddable breeds, from puppyhood, and who are rabbit-quick to judge how I approach training the dogs I’ve lived and worked with over the last 30 years. Some of my dogs have been puppies. Some have been older dogs who have brought with them an amazing amount of baggage before training with me could even begin…former show dogs, off-the-street rescues, retired racing greyhounds fresh off the track. Some of my students’ dogs have, individually, had more baggage (including their owners) than all of my personal dogs combined!
To assume that with every dog, it’s possible to control all of the awesomely possible self-reinforcers in his world, all of the time, so that you and the interactions you provide can become the dog’s ultimate positive reinforcement is simply NOT always the case. Can it be done, on an individual basis, by a committed trainer working with a difficult dog. Sure? Can it be a standard of training for all dogs with advanced behavior issues, for dogs who don’t know how to learn or interact with people, across the board? No.
Like Barb, my toolbox is a full closet, and I still used pretty much every tool in the closet depending on what I need to help the individual dog learn. And I’m really, really tired of people who don’t live with or work with those dogs on a regular basis telling the rest of the world that the tools dog trainers like me use when they need them are somehow “lesser than” the purely positive approach they’ve chosen to use with their dogs.
Then I remember that in fact, a “purely positive” approach wouldn’t be averse to including both positive reinforcement AND positive punishment, where it’s needed. 😉
I’m mystified why other trainers who don’t choose to take advantage of all of the methods and tools in my toolbox need to try to make the tools they choose to use seem somehow superior to the ones they choose not to use. To me, it’s kinda like the observation about the old Parkay commercial…you’ll never hear butter saying “tastes like Parkay.”
In other words, I think each dog trainer should work to be true to what s/he stands for and be the best dog trainer s/he can be. I will take notes and learn from anyone, but that doesn’t mean I’m willing to forsake methods that I know are sound and working. Fer cryin’ out loud, can’t we drop the efforts to make one method(s)/approach take the place of or replace all other method(s) across the board for all dogs?
Pat, we are not talking about “just another method” – positive is an entire philosophy, a different paradigm.
It is not compatible with any coercive method whatsoever.
One of my favorite things about you as a trainer is that the majority of your blog comments read like 5-star amazon.com reviews.
“Excellent!! I thoroughly enjoyed this life-changing product and I am not the same after using it! I would buy this again, and I would recommend this item to a friend! EVERYONE needs one of these!
LOL!! Great analogy.
access to amazing (self) re-inforcement
Graph doesn’t seem quite right – needs the word self?…
If the idea is to become your dog’s best cookie or the gateway to all things brilliant for the dog. Ie I am more rewarding than than jumping in the water or possum chase.
So the closer we get to being the amazing re-inforcement the more we need to punish the dog to train it? Erm.
So at some point – we having trained the dog as best we can in controlled environment, we test our training by allowing our dog to choose between us and self re-inforcing with amazing high value reward.
Where is the graph of amazing reward vs powerful distraction?
I dunno I can’t imagine beating my dog up for chasing cars would have any effect but to make her scared of me – not the cars. No effect on car chasing at all – but having a reward/treat/game that’s better than chasing the cars – that works.
look how long Swagger’s legs are – whoo hoo. I wonder if he’s faster than Feature already?
When I had been working for a dog ground and over years transfered much to positive training and then a new trainer came and all started backwards again, though we took all dogs and owners in our class others could not work with (helpless cases) and they all improved and still some went to the negative trainer from us. I did ask myself the same questions.
What I found:
Nothing is more true than the sentence “Force starts where knowledge ends”.
Then I have the feeling that humans are so relieved when they are out of wits and can do something even if this is force, that though some might have bad consciouse it still gives a short endorphine rush that gives you a high satisfaction feeling at the same time.
Controlling the environment be it only that the dog does not steal food, feels for many people so bad- poor dog, or so much hard work.
Sticking to bad old habbits feels more secure than changing to the unknown.
Dog trainers with force training work a lot with fear in humans too. “If you do not have a choke chain on that dog he will eat you up in a year.”
I also found that many people came back after some weeks from the negative training to the positive training and we started changing association with many things, but better understanding on the human part.
As trainer, I find it hard to teach people the importance and fun of working in the basics first and only going on once they are solid.
Doesn`t show your today`s video that it all comes to the critical core games?
Thanks for answering my aweful lot of questions in Italy at the seminar it was wonderful “even” for a SAR dog trainer. :o)
Christine
@Barb, you rock! Let us all know how it goes and if we can be of any help . . . bounce ideas off of . . . whatever you need!
Hi Susan
There is a bit of confusion. My chosen addiction is herding not gun dogs. We have an organic grass based cow dairy, hair sheep, and Border Collies.
I read that you have done some herding so you probably realize the amount of force currently used to train herding. I have herded for about 18 years and use my dogs both on the farm and for limited trialing.
I worked with an “expert” handler for about 8 years. He believed totally in criticism and “mild” punishment for both his students and his dogs. I got tired of telling my dogs they were wrong. He believed that silence was reinforcing but when I finally got good enough to earn his silence I found no positive feelings were elicited.
So my mission is find a way to tell my dogs when they are right. I want to say YES!
I have recently started learning how to use clicker training, games(God forbid), and setting up my dogs to teach themselves. Already I can see a BIG difference in their attitudes, they are happy instead of mildly depressed.
A lot of the games you use would be a good foundation for teaching them self-control and adding value to me. I am currently playing crate games and have signed up for puppy peaks.
I know there is a better way and I intend to find it. I really, really appreciate your encouragement and if you are interested I would be truly happy to run a few things by you once in a while. I realize you are very busy and that herding is not your first love but any help you are willing to give me would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks for your wonderful example and keep on plowin’,
Barb
Susan
I feel like everything you wrote below your video could have been written specifically for me.
I accept your challenge and hope I am capable of figuring out how to do what others don’t believe can be done.
I BELIEVE!
Susan,
This is the most concise and direct blog ever in addresseing this topic.
Can’t wait to share with others and really wish it would get published in print.
My border collie has been in do land since I got and used Susan’s program.
The Recallers and puppy peaks have filled in many gaps and converted her breeder to share and get more people to take the puppy peaks and it just keeps getting passed on and on. WOW this is cool.
The best advertisement I think is the public noticing my dog and I and how we interact. I think keeping in do lnd and being positive every day myself has touched just people seeing me in public and inspired them to do this program more than just by myself and my dog. I am sooo happy with where all of this is going and continues to help me grow.
Everyone just keep passing it on in actions and words.
Thanks to SY!!!!
Susan…RUFF LOVE has some similarities with NILIF.
Can you explain the differences between them, to make things perfectly clear ?
Thank you !
Thank you! I have never met you, but my training has been and still is shaped by Recallers, Puppy Peaks, and your blog. If only my first dog could have benefited from this knowledge as a younster—but she is now!
What more evidence does the world need, than just watching Swagger!
I dream of a day when trainers can come together without judgement to come together to watch experts in various disciplines give demonstations of the tools of their trade. My training tool box (which actually is a huge closet) consists of clickers, tug toys, treats, harnesses, head halters, prong collars, slip collars, and e-collars. Yes, I still use every tool in my “box’ depending on what I am working on with my dog. No the e-collar does not come out when we are doing agility, but yes the e-collar (along with a beeper collar) comes out when he is grouse hunting and there is no way of reaching him to a) remove him from the reinforcement (bird) or b) remove the reinforcer (wild grouse). Might I add-the dog has been taught how to turn off the stimulation (if it is needed-which is rare)I will continue to use all the tools availble to me (and use them wisely) depending on what I am teaching my dog. Again-I wish we could all get along, and learn from each other. Yes some tools are very powerful in untrained hands, but please don’t judge those of us who train using a variety of tools.
I’m sure Susan does not judge.
Many traditional trainers have added positive training and clicker to their toolbox.
But that is not positive training any more!
Once you’ve done the paradigm shift, any form of punishment becomes incompatible with all that you’re doing.
I’ve had several dogs, but only my last pup is being trained “almost all positive”.
Why “almost” ?
Because I’m new to this and haven’t yet figured everything out and sometimes use a little moderate punishment, but I’m striving to definately kick that habit !
I agree even with the addition of adding clicker methods etc, the training cannot be considered ‘purely postiive” But I maintain that not every “job” that a dog does can be done with purely positive methods. I train my setters in obedience, agility, draft, and field. I use different tools for each “job”. There has yet to be a reliably trained gun-dog with purely positive methods. Even trainers who started with the goal of doing it in a purely positive method have realizewd that it cannot be done. We want our dogs crazy for birds-we want the bird to be THE biggest thing out there, but we don’t want our dog to get shot. Even at 2 months old, my setter pup if offered a choice between a live quail or a tasty treat would always choose the bird. Do I want to change that -not a chance. There will be a time in the not too distant future that he will be conditioned to an e-collar, the same as my older guy. I still do yard work, agility, training, and obedience training with postive methods, but yes unti it is proven that I can have a reliable gun-dog with no punishment, I will still use that tool as necessary.
@Barb I encourage not to allow the limits of the current “gun dog specialist” beliefs do not define all that is possible in the world of gun dog training.
Here is the thing, the higher the value of the reward the more amazing the results will be when you train without positive punishment. Since you have a reward the dogs love more than food or toys you have a better starting point than most people in the dog world.
All of the gun dog trainers that have tried and failed have just paved the way to help define what will not work. Those are lessons to learn from as you develop the most amazing gun dog of all time.
Why wait until it is proven — why not be the proof?
That is one thing I don’t quite understand… I have a field bred Golden plus another Border Collie pup who was exposed to sheep at 7 wks of age and demonstrated very good instinct. With either a hunting dog or a herding dog you are working with strong instinct/prey drive. The consequences of an out of control herding dog (taking out stock) are huge to a farmer/rancher and could affect their profits. The consequences of an out of control hunting dog, scares birds all away and yes the potential to be shot. So why with one type of dog, hunting, they are not trainable without the use of e-collars/aversives etc whereas with another, the herding dog, many people train without these?
I think it comes down to what Susan says, how do you pose the training questions to the dog? I live in an area of the US where dogs are property and where hunting is a huge part of the states economy. I have had more than one client come to me wanting a different way to train his hunting dog other than traditional methods. It can be done and done reliably. I also think there are several dogs that have received Master Hunter passes in AKC that are positively trained.
Barb, I love the first line of your comment, well said, A dream we should all strive for. May your dreams come true…
Like Barb, I have primarily switched over to positive only training for my last 2 dogs, but I still keep a full toolbox. I’ve participated in the Recallers e-course and it has made a huge difference in my young and formerly wild male (who was an absolutely wonderful puppy until he turned 15 months when he became an adolescent monster–he has now returned to hormonally sanity as a 2.5 year old). I also found that working him in agility (while also training Recallers) helped a great deal. But the lightbulb moment for him was when he decided to do zoomies in agility and an offleash, older male aussie bit him on the rear end for those zoomies. After that, my dog said, “okay, I’m staying in the reinforcement zone with you because you don’t bite me on the butt and you give me treats instead.” I did not administer the aversive that changed my dog’s behavior — another dog did. Interestingly, from that moment onward, he also would 100% of the time return to the reinforcement zone in obedience, rally, water work, and field work. But I have used an e-collar on him to prevent him from going over our fence and after a passerby. Like the aussie butt bite, that has made a lasting impression on him that jumping the fence is not to be done.
Interestingly, I tried the Recallers course on my other youngish dog (a soft, female who is 4). She has been hard to train as she was afraid of the clicker noise when young and was not food motivated. I had to train her completely by voice tone and touch to her chest (which she found very rewarding–and still does). I’ve since gotten her over her clicker phobia by using bug clickers with softer clicks and then eventually going to stronger and stronger clickers. She now loves to do shaping behaviors and her food motivation has increased. She is only positively trained because she can’t even tolerate a slight shift in your tone of voice. She was also very wary and very worried by many of the more physical parts of the Recallers course, so I was less successful with her there.
When I fostered a rescue husky (who was 6 yrs old and had lived on a 4 ft chain with a collar so tight it could barely breathe), that husky was a bolter out of doors and windows and was also a cat killer. And I had two cats and lots of windows and lots of doors. No one else would foster this dog because of her behavior. I put the dog on a prong collar with a 20 ft lead attached. If she bolted, I did nothing more than stand up and step on the long lead (I did not utter one sound). At some point the dog reached the end and self-corrected. After 3 episodes for doors/windows and 2 episodes for cat chasing, the husky became a non-bolter and a non-cat chaser. When she was adopted 3 months later (so I had plenty of time to judge whether those aversives had changed her behavior), she went to a great home where she had lots of freedom and interaction with new owners that took her to work with them and they absolutely adored her.
I’m on a list right now where this same discussion is brewing about whether one can train solely with positive methods only. Interestingly someone has described a process of “reward” and “unreward”. In one of the discussions, they described a type of unreward as “pulling the dog towards them when it didn’t do what was asked of it” — that sounds like an aversive to me because if you have to pull, the dog doesn’t want to come and you are making it come.
I think much of it boils down to your dog’s personality type, what behavior(s) you are dealing with and trying to train or untrain, and whether you believe you have the time to deal with or manage the problem (i.e., the circumstances you find yourself in). In the case of the husky, I didn’t want to risk my cats, the dog had already destroyed one metal crate, and so I didn’t have time to reshape behavior. In the case of my young male, Recallers was working, but jumping the fence was a dangerous event both in terms of potentially being hit by a car or by getting into trouble with the dog officer and being labelled as vicious for chasing people.
In a perfect world, we’d have time to deal with all issues in a positive way. In our world, sometimes we don’t have the necessary time. The key is to not indiscriminately use aversives, but to use them in a highly strategic way and to use positive training methods for everything else.
In other words, people use punishment as a shortcut, because they don’t have the time to train positively ?!
I’ve often heard that positive training is ok for pet dogs or Agility…but not efficient for bird dogs or Schutzhund for example.
But is anyone seriously even trying ?
I doubt so, simply because most people involved in those sports have a different overall mentality, or culture…
I’m sure it can be done and hope we’ll see it soon !
I have trained and trialed my own bird dogs (Weims, GSP & Pointer) in AKC & American Field. I have paid “pro trainers” for their time to run my dogs with theirs and learn how they do what they do. I have George Hickox and Ferrel Miller DVDs and read numerous books. I have never let any of these individials put their hands on my dogs or left them with anyone. I have seen horrific things in the bird dog world. My guys have been set up for success to the best of my ability at the time and each dog finished better, more reliable and mentally stronger than the one before him. I never inflicted what I saw on my animals if it caused any loss of confidence- that’s a lot of things that I saw but wouldn’t do. You CAN make a spectacular bird dog without punishment. If you think you can’t, then you’re moving too fast. Repetition, repetition, repetition. Increase your distance slower- foot by foot if needed. The two most notable things I’ve picked up along the way is that people want to finish their dogs way too fast and I’ve NEVER seen anyone in pointing dogs proof their recall to the extent Susan does. Hence, the need for the E collar. Give them fresh quail,
pheasant, etc as the ultimate jackpot. I have never trained my field dogs with treats or toys. It’s hard to imagine those things being more valuable than birds- but I am more valuable than birds to my dogs. I have seen trainers ruin more of their own dogs as well as clients dogs than I care to admit. Maybe it’s because they’re always looking for the next star that wins Nationals at the age of 2. I have to live with my choice of puppy for 12-15 yrs. It’s worth the time and effort to
do it right. Good luck and there is a better way!
Thank you for you insight Debbi,
but I am not sure I fully understand some of your points-increase distance yard by yard. Is this in the bird field or doing yard work. In the bird field-I never want my dog pussyfooting around being cautious going away from me to seek the birds. During yard work-yes I go yard by yard with rewards for recalling. Giving fresh quail and pheasant as a reward -in what manner? I want my dog rock solid and to never put a live bird in it’s mouth (and to keep the dead ones in the mouth to a minimum-they are not taught to retrieve-but to point dead).
I know I am beating a dead horse here, as I am not going to convince anyone on this list otherwise, and you are not going to convince me otherwise, but I am trying to point out that there are other ways that do work. And yes-Debbi, I am aiming to attempt to point a National Championship on my boy at a young age, and yes his predecesors have done the same and have lived as hunting companions and family pets for years afterwards. Agility for me is a hobby for something to do during the off-season when we can’t play with birds. i guess, different strokes for different folks. We all have our own agenda, and our own means of getting there.
Hi Susan,
I appreciated your recent article and wanted to thank you for presenting yourself in a non judmental way. Often, folks who find a method that works will put down others who dont do it exactly like them, and think there is only one way. You presented your beliefs and findings so well and opened up folks minds to think more about their training methods, question, re evaluate, etc… without putting down other methods or trainers. Rather, you lead by example, this is wonderful. Just wanted to say thank you for inspiring others. As a fellow dog lover, I think its so important that we reflect these same principals with those around us. Wouldnt it be wonderful if humans treated each other in such a loving way….thank you again and God bless!
Question? I care for 20 to 40 dogs a day. When we have a dog in the play group that wants to hump others. If he or she won’t stop with distraction and perhaps engaging in a game. We will as the dog starts to go for the hump. Take the dog and put him away fromt the group for 1 minute or so. Others keep playing. We sometimes need to do this as much as 4 times, but then the dog wants to play ( their reward) so the dogs stops the humping behaviour. We do nothing if all dogs are interacting well
and the humping can be stoppd with distraction. So do you consider this unacceptable punishment?
@Barktender, not at all! I think that is great strategic use of -R. If I am going to use punishment in my training (which I, like you try to avoid, that is what I will use).
Wonderful blog Susan, but it brings up a question I’ve been wanting to ask since coming over to Do-Land. You have mentioned many times in your writings, webinars, etc. that you have not used verbal or physical corrections “since 1994”. I am wondering if there was a watershed moment or something specific that happened for you to have this epiphany of sorts. I ask because that is about the time I got out of competition obedience, for several reasons, not the least of which was because I was so disenchanted with the whole atmosphere of “traditional training” methods. If you could share with us what prompted you to make that decision, it could be quite enlightening.
At any rate, I am so happy to be here, and back in the sport using positive training. Thanks for all you do.
@Connie, no exactly moment really just a cumulation of lessons learned mostly through my dogs that caused my searching. Possibly a future blog post to expand on it all:).
Yes, a future blog on the hows and whys of adopting your current training methods would be wonderful. I notice that many of your readers here and on Puppy Peaks(including me)say how much they wish they had “discovered” you sooner, and had used only non-violent methods on previous dogs.
The graphs help answer the question as to why people continue to use punishment as a teaching tool: “When people lose control of what reinforces the dog, the only thing left is punishment.” Brilliant.
“I think it is more how you pose the training questions to the dog that has to change, not the consequence of their answers.”
Tattoo-worthy. Now to decide on a font.
OMG,Kathryn! I laughed so hard after reading your post that I had tears streaming down my face! I couldn’t agree more with Susan’s comment, and your idea of getting it tatooed (or at the very least, posted on the fridge…!)I currently have a whole classful of traditional/compulsion method students in my puppy pre-school class (they came out of the woodwork to take the class at the same time!). Having previously worked for years in higher ed, I can attest to the fact that one needs to walk the talk; not just talk the talk. Although repeating one’s self ad nauseum doesn’t hurt…I look at this current group of students as a challenge versus a struggle, and am “ants in my pants” excited every week to show them the endless possibilities of living in DO-Land with their new pups!
“I think it is more how you pose the training questions to the dog that has to change, not the consequence of their answers.”
As a trainer, I feel that it’s equally important how I pose training questions to my students which in turn can affect the consequence of their answers(response/interaction with their dogs), as well.
I am super grateful for Susan’s post today, and to you too Kathryn, for your sense of humor!
I too LOVED this quote! I do know that when you reach the level of commitment / planning / follow thru in Susan’s program do you really start thinking about how to pose questions to the dog to get what you need – or at least alter them! When I read yesterdays blog and Susan had put the words to paper – it made me think of a few behaviours in the last few weeks that I’ve stopped doing what I ‘normally do’ and changed to pose the question differently and WELLA the behaviour is closer to what I wanted void of any frustration on either of our parts. There is a brightness in my dogs eyes/ears on top of the head – the trust in our relationship that I can tell you had previously suffered when I was finding my dog training path to Susan’s program from more traditional methods.
You know when the quote – resonates in you and your training there is a realization / belief that
what your asking the dog is actually “Do-able!”
Competely agree with Bonnie 🙂
Life with my dogs has become so much richer and easier with recallers and PP. It is simply amazing !!
Wish I had learned about Susan much earlier so that all my dogs could have profited when they were here.
I think I never had happier and more balanced dogs than now !! Thanks Susan !!
You are my hero Susan 🙂 And I LOVE Swagger!
Hi, I’ve never commented before – but I’ve had the pleasure of attending seminars with first the Amazing LOH and then Susan in Australia. I’m on PP and I’ve read the books – watched the DVD’s. I have a 3yo with “issues” and I’m trying really really hard to stay in DO-land. The other day, I was so frustrated with her – she lunges and screams and pulls at other dogs on walks – yes I know HALTI – but I’m unable to use one on her how I WISH I could! She is much better with lots of reinforcement and work – which probably upped my frustration the other day as I know she likes DO land as well as she’s a nervous dog – anyway, I lost my cool and resorted to the “NOOOO” and I popped her with a martingale collar on a couple of times – all I found it did was make her more nervous and cringe away – made me feel absolutely AWFUL and in tears until we just walked on and I let her range ahead and relax, then I asked for something easy, got her in position, really looked at MY reinforcement position, timing etc and attitude and brought myself back into DO land with a little “SG & LOH lecture in my head”. I made a really conscious effort to more even more work into my rewards and reinfocement at home since that episode last week and the previous week when she absconded from me – and last night she snuck out the gate with my younger pup as I put the garbage bins out and IMMEDIATELY recalled on a dime in a high level environment – a car was going past which she wanted to chase! We then went to training and she was even more focused with strange dogs in her class – another HIGH level stress environment for her – my point – my DOG works better when I WORK better in DO-LAND. We need to take the responsibility and really look at our training – I had fallen down on my “record keeping” of my rewards and reinforcers – the fault was MY training of a dog that I know is difficult and has issues – DONT land didn’t help when we reverted to punishment – DO land did help…. its so true – its simple, but not easy – it requires work to change behaviours – but the work should start with ourselves and our behaviours – the dogs are easy if we get it right! And its true if nothing else Puppy Peaks is teaching me how simple it really is. I thank you, but most of all my dogs thank you! (PS. Sorry my first post is such a long post!)
WIth my rescue girl, head collar (I use a Snoot Loop) didn’t seem like it was going to work either. Big case of Don’t Wanna, Don’t Hafta. As I worked more through more of Susan’s courses and books, I came around to it again and got better at showing my girl how the Snoot Loop was going to work for us. It took time, but it was so worth it to address reactive/fearful lunging and barking. She’s still not in love with it, but she is pretty much indifferent to the head collar now, and she is so much more confident around other dogs, even reactive ones, now.
Thanks Kristi, I looked into getting a snoot loop – went directly to the maker, as they are not here in Aust. But was told it wouldn’t fit on her as she’s a pug with a very flat face. The maker said even the specialist snoot loop needs some short muzzle. We keep trying with other methods of reinforcing good behaviour and keeping distance, it just makes things sooo much slower to work through as I have to move her rather than turn her head away. We will get there though! 🙂
Oh — sorry even the specialty one won’t work, but you’re right. You will get there, even without a snoot loop! Because you care so much and are willing to expect more of yourself. What a lucky dog you have. You’ve probably thought of this, but the other thing that helped me was to have someone film our walks from behind so I could watch and see exactly what was triggering reactivity. Watching the tapes, I realized that she reacted to any but the briefest glances from other dogs. That gave me a number of ideas of alternative behaviors to train. Just being able to watch the unwanted behavior without the turmoil of being in the middle of it was very helpful.
Hi Susan, my two previous dogs, both no longer with me were trained using the ” just give them a quick pop with the chain” and scream “NOOOO!!!” method, because that was all the clubs here were offering. I am really sad that I found a better way, too late for them. I now live in DO LAND with 5 dogs from 2 – 9 years of age and we are LOVING it. That is not to say that “NO” does not escape my lips from time to time, but the reward I get from having such well behaved, happy, confident dogs is fast extingushing that behaviour. Today, and many other days, I am grateful to the person who said to me ” look up Susan Garrett on the internet”
I’m watching Kathy Sdao’s Advanced Clicker Training DVD and she does a test with a group using four different training methods with a trainer and a human dog, all four trainers had to get their dog to stomp a foot. Clearly the human dog whom was physically trained got the behavior, but she sure didn’t want to continue training. This was done in a previous test and the human dog had to leave the area, the human touch didn’t hurt but being startled and touched in general made her want nothing else to do with it. So, the point was the behavior was reached but the dog doesn’t enjoy or WANT to continue to work. The other dogs were eager to work again and didn’t avoid training. I wouldn’t want to work if I were being physically manipulated, I’m a don’t touch me kind of person.
Thanks Susan, I’m learning so much from Recallers and Puppy Peaks!
Tonya
Susan keep up the good work. You have been a great guide on helping grow my relationship with my 3yr GSP that we saved from being shot 8 months ago. She came from a bad pheasant hunter that must have been physical and verbally abused. Since when I was at agility class the other day. The trainer was telling the class when you should YELL NO at your dog and correct your dog. She was by Izzy and she shut down and would not go by my trainer when we training beginner obsticles. It took me a couple minutes for her to come back to me. But when she did you could see the trust that we have built up. Since starting the 5 minute recall and ruff love programs I have a excited, smart, loving dog that I’m happy and proud to own.(I would have not said that 4 months ago) So thank you from all of us that love our huntig dogs that know there is a better way to to show their true talent without the abuse.
@Katy, awesome report, thank you for sharing it!
I don’t HATE clicker training or PP training, but have seen a lot of disgust directed at me by them.
Is it possible that no one method works on EVERY dog out there???? I do private training with dogs who have been kicked out of PP classes in the states, some recommending to be euthanized…. Sometimes someone has to tell them NO and there should be consequences to their actions (which is a WHOLE other problem with society as a whole).
I use corrections to provide direction and occasionally interupt behaviours that are dangerous (to the dog or to the public). Some of these dogs would prefer to attack another animal over ANY treat or toy in the world, dragging owners with them if necessary. It sounds LOVELY to say don’t put them in that situation to begin with, but people really DO want to WALK their dogs and not wait on a corner evern 6 steps until the dog returns to them. If 2 simple pop corrections can stop that obsessive and dangerous behaviour, I’m all for it. I’ve had clients who had gone to more than 5 PP classes for dog reactivity and were told that that is the best they can expect. This dog I’m thinking of went on to bite someone…. I worked with her, and 2 pop corrections for lunging at other dogs/people, and she stared up at me with the ‘Oh, no one ever told me I COULDN’T do that’ and we were done. This is after 2 years of PP classes. I’ve titled dogs after just a few months of training that people said were untrainable.
All of that in there, I have used only PP methods on dogs, soft dogs in particular. I also have worked dogs that couldn’t care less about the food/toys that are offered and were ‘out of time’ to say the least. My first dog from a breeder had that breeder tell me if I used PP/clicker training with her dog, she was CERTAIN she’d be getting the dog back… That the majority of her dogs bred that were returned were trained PP and kind of over ran the house and their owners. My girl gets treats, toys, and, yes, the occasional correction. She’s under 2 has legs towards her rally title, has passed the ATTS test, and has conformation points – so there has been NO aggression or other evils appearing because of the occasional use of corrections.
That being said, I’m probably not going to change your mind and you’re probably not going to change mine, but can we possibly afford each other a reasonable amount of respect and just help these dogs stay in their homes AND keep people/other animals safe??? Different methods should be available to everyone, because all dogs (or people) do not learn in the exact same manner, or every child would come out of High School with honors and move right to college and potentially be doctors, etc… The truth of the matter is, every living thing has basic drives, primary drives, and ‘personal’ drives….
Thanks for taking the time to write Anne, I welcome your perspective, I honestly do!
While I do agree that all dogs do not have the same drives therefore will not learn the same I can’t agree that this means some need corrections and others do not. I think it is more the how you pose the training questions to the dog that has to change, not the consequence of their answers.
As an instructor of humans the hardest thing for me to learn was to change my approach to be the most effective to the different personality types of dog owners. Some are soft others are tough. Some enjoy humour more while others want more straight facts. However regardless of their differences they all respond much better to reinforcement rather than verbal punishers (and I can honestly say I have left the the physical punishers of the humans behind me:)).
Dogs that won’t take food or toys in training are dogs that must learn to not only take food or toys in training but LOVE to take them (and yes I have had many . . . as a matter of fact MOST high drive dogs will refuse R+ at one point in their life). For me, a person that refuses to resort to punishment a dog refusing R+ is not an option and we will dog train through THAT issue (which I refer to the “Don’t Wanna, Don’t Hafta” moments) before we move on to other training.
Once again, thanks for being brave enough to offer your thoughts on using correction on an obviously pro-reinforcement blog. It is only through understanding and communication that we can move dog training onward to its most effective and enjoyable level.
I kind of got this was truly a positive blog, which is fine. I just think that almost all training methods have some validity to them. I think you can learn from anyone, if you let yourself.
That’s where I run into trouble. By the time people are referred to me (I don’t advertise) by my vet, they have exhausted different training locations and multiple classes and these dogs have often bitten at least 1 person or more.
For some dogs aggression/barking & even biting is self rewarding. A treat or toy is no where near as interesting as sending that person away or even scaring someone. I can say that I’ve been able to keep these dogs in their homes and keep the public safe. No I don’t do ‘alpha rolls’ or ‘dominance downs’ or anything like that, I’m talking a quick ‘pop’ correction on a training collar. A lot of these times these dogs look at me like, “Oh, why didn’t you say so?” and the behavior stops (and no it doesn’t reappear) in 2 to 4 sessions. As I said, a lot of these dogs/handlers have been doing PP classes for YEARS, and just want help and/or pass some CGC test so their insurance doesn’t get dropped.
I train my dog with both corrections and food/toys, and have had MANY compliments from judges in competition about how well my dogs did. My rescued Silky was the #1 Silky Terrier in the US the other year for his Rally Novice and when I got him he had bitten 4 people already. The one first place he got meant very little to me compared to the judges comments that ‘it was a pleasure to watch him work, you are a great team, and it is clear he understands exactly what is expected of him’. His little stub goes non stop when we’re working.
As I said, I’ve trained dogs using many MANY methods. I vary them based on the dog, not even the breed, but I don’t rule anything out. I spent YEARS as a co-manager at a shelter, and my goal is to keep these dogs in their homes, help their owners, AND keep the public safe. I’ve even paid for ‘aggression’ seminars with PP individuals, and watched him say that it would take MONTHS with a certain dog aggressive Belgian Tervuren, but the handler didn’t HAVE months… I wish all happy training, I could show videos of my dogs working with their tails wagging happily, looking at me expectantly, but I honestly don’t believe in this venue that would matter. Best of luck in all you do.
Gosh, I must be able to read a chart, because I undstand what you were saying, Susan… maybe it’s the nurse in me…lots of chart graphs in my life time!! LOL
Can I have the permission to translate this article to portuguese?
I will obviously give all credits and the link to your website.
Absolutely Anna, thank for writing, please embed the video (and photos) in to your post. And thank you for asking first, please include the phrase “used with permission from Susan Garrett” when you translate it.
Thank you Susan!
This will be of great value! Hope it will make people think a little deeper into the possibilities and awesomeness of Do Land!
Susan, thank you so much for taking the time to write this post and share such a wonderful video. You and Swagger are quite a team already!!!
I was able to call my 14 month old lab rescue (who I’ve had for 3 months) off a suspiciously curious river otter on our hike yesterday and I KNOW it’s because of the start I have been able to give her from all the ideas in Puppy Peaks. THANK YOU.
Okay, let me stir the pot …
What if your dog is doing a behavior that is downright dangerous — to either him or to another animal?
For example, what if your dog jumps fences to chase people or cars down the road?
What if your dog goes after another animal (like a cat or chicken or a smaller dog)?
Without being able to extinguish these behaviors immediately, your dog (or the animal it is after) could die.
So aside from keeping your dog permanently on leash, how do you extinguish dangerous behavior using a purely positive method?
@Kari, thanks for stirring the pot! So happy to have people question what I am presenting. The answer is simple (but not always easy). A Ruff Love dog would not be given free access to the back yard off leash until a time you had 1) Built amazing reinforcement value for you. Check out the new photo I just posted to this blog– it is of my 4 dogs that I just let outside. They go out onto 28 unfenced acres (with bunnies and deer everywhere) get no more than 6′ away from the bottom of the stairs and look for me and what I want to do. 2). Was completely confident that I had worked through any distraction that might threaten my dog’s life (like the drive to chase/hunt) before I gave them this freedom.
Thank you for the blog, books and videos. I have learned a lot but i still have some questions that inhibit me from completely understanding your method.
Question 1) What would you have done when Swagger was running full out in your video and he did not come back to you? I think you have illustrated well in this post and others your successes with your methods. I am at the stage where I require better understanding on how to react when the dog chooses what you did not intend for him to choose. My guess is that you would build value for you. However what do you do in that exact instance when the dog ignores your call. Do you ignore it and go back to the motivation? Do you walk over and get the dog?
2) When you ask for Swagger to redo his sit due to sloppy and slow performance, is this not considered a correction?
3) What would you do should Swagger conitnue a sloppy sit, say five times in a row? This I can guess also at the answer (go back to sit training and reinforce fast sits) but again my question is the same: what do you do in that exact moment where Swagger is clearly telling you he is sitting slow.
4) Last pressing issue for me: If a dog has shown you they completely understand an exercise: fetch. They have done it countless times. One day they choose not to. Do you consider this because you have lost value/reinforcement for this behaviour and need to build it again?
Pardon my ever need for concreteness….I look forward to your response to help me in my training!
I’ll let Susan tackle your first two questions, but the third one I wanted to comment on.
Sometimes when a dog is doing a behavior over and over and doing it perfectly and then all of a sudden stops doing that behavior, there could be a physical reason — not a behavioral reason — behind the refusal.
Think agility. Dog runs up and down A-frame for months, then suddenly won’t do it. Perhaps the dog has a wrist injury that has built up over time. Think retrievals: suddenly a retrieving maniac won’t retrieve. Perhaps it has a neck injury. Hormones can also influence a dog. My bitch goes brain dead at her heats (not all females do) and then again during false pregnancies. I lose my male when she is in heat, particularly on day 10-13. When my dogs can’t sit squarely, I know their hips need a chiro adjustment. When my bitch runs and lists to the left, I know her right shoulder is out.
A lot of times people assume the dog has become stubborn when refusing to do something it was doing. The first thought in your mind should be that there is an underlying physical issue going on. We ask a lot of our dogs physically in all performance events and yet we rarely think about the small micro-damage that is occuring to their muscles and ligaments. We should be much more aware of what we are doing to our performance dogs and think more about also training core muscle strength and doing lots of conditioning with them and then learn how to read their bodies so we can see when something is “off”.
Great post, really relevant to current discussions in New Zealand obedience at the moment with lots of ‘old school’ force based training.
Thanks!
Just got home from going to Kinko’s to copy some agility training notes into a file – and the guy ringing me up noticed the cover.
Anyway – he told me his mom had bought a “training collar” and for grins & giggles he put it on his neck & hit the button. Needless to say, they returned the thing but I had to inquire as to what dog they were planning on using this thing on and he said a Papillion – can you imagine?
Next he asks me about spray bottles – you know – spraying the dog for bad behavior? And I ask him how he would feel if for no apparent reason at work someone sprayed him in the face for doing something for which no one had trained him and sure enough there was the light bulb moment.
So then I asked him if he would prefer it if his boss praised him for everything he did correctly or if he preferred to be yelled at, choked or hit for everything he did wrong? Hmmm – another light bulb moment.
thanks Susan – you are having an impact on people
Yes, I agree with Anna Carol…one of your top best blogs EVER! Keep on keeping on, Susan…. I’m following! :o}
Skillfully written, and with joy evident between the lines. Even the “challenge” reads like an irresistable invitation to the party. And Swagger!!!!
“Tree hugging clicker freaks” LOL. Susan, I’ve been hanging around awhile, and I’m understanding the philosophy, but it takes some time to “live the philosophy.” So, I just wanted to say THANK YOU for providing insight and access to exactly what it is you do and how you do it, your blog, e-courses, seminars so that I can review the material over and over and eventually come to internalize it. I’m starting to be able to “do the Do-Land thing” even in situations that I haven’t seen discussed here, yet, and it’s a great feeling. And instead of feeling like a lone ship on a big sea, I feel like part of a really exciting, vibrant community because of your pioneering e-classes. Please keep on. In twenty years, when I am showing a grandchild the path to Do-Land with her first dog, I want to entertain her with stories of the way dog training used to be . . .
I live in do-land now. I started converting about five years ago and because I’m “older” it took a while. Even when I knew I shouldn’t, those “no’s” crept out. But you can teach an old human new tricks and I get it now! My youngest dog (15 months)has lived in do-land his entire life, and boy, is there a difference. He is a very driven Malinois (my first of this breed) and experienced people have told me from the get-go that I needed to “knock him down” before he got to be too much for me. Well, he did get to be too much when his prey drive kicked in high gear at 10 months. I knew I was in over my head, but could not imagine using a “correction” on a dog that trusted me so completely, so I took him to an animal behaviorist who was thrilled that he was a clicker dog. We “fixed” him in a couple of months and he remains a wonderful boy. Had this happened with a dog whose behavior was repressed, I truly think the dog would have had to be put down. Instead, he learned doggy yoga (he learned to relax and take a deep breath on cue–and now does it himself when he gets aroused) and is still in do-land. Honestly, do-land saved this dog’s life. The possibilities are endless in do-land. My dogs and I are going to stay there.
Actually, the only beef I’m having with this post IS showing dogs so young. At 6 mo most dogs are not yet your “typical teenagers”. For example recall with 12-16 mo border collie would be much more impressive (at least to me, as I work with puppies a lot in a private setting and I know what they are capable of – and not yet all that independent).
@Kasia. I personally think the “honeymoon” phase is long over once a puppy reaches 6 months old but if you need more convincing please check out this video clip with my dogs ranging from 2 years old to 14 responding to similar cues in a highly exciting environment at distances of more than 100′ away from me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADfbS3YN1aQ&feature=channel_video_title
@Susan, this is my ALL time favourite video of yours. I watch and re-watch it and share it with as many people as I possibly can. I think what you do for dogs of all ages is amazing, and though what you have seen in my pups doesn’t look like much it is a massive improvement with them! I look forward to many more videos, blogs, on-lines and puppy peaks. You are the pioneer in my eyes and I wished I had searched for you sooner.
Hi! The video isn’t showing on youtube cause I’m in Germany. Did you post it on your facebook page as well?
Unfortunately I have this with a lot of videos from your blog… I think mostly because of the music that is used in it. So I’m happy about every vid that is posted on facebook or vimeo 😉
Anyways, I’m really thankful you share all this with us!
To your point:
I just met someone who studies dog training and she told me the story of a client of hers. she was telling her client that her dog would be kidding her when he was not responding to cues and she sometimes would need to use a “muzzle grab” to show her dog whos in charge… umpf! still a lot of people out there. Problem with punishment is that it can be some kind of self-rewarding for the punisher in that exact moment, so they are likely to use it again… but on the long run…
@Leni, there is no music with this video it should play without issue.
thanks for answering.
It doesn’t wanna… 😉
It says “this content is not available in your country”… uh, well, maybe I find some computerfriend who knows how to make my computer ” canadian”…
till then I’m just going to watch and enjoy all the other videos on yt and pp…
Have an awesome day!
hi there kasia just wanted to share on a little pup that one of my agility friend imported recently they got him on his 8 month birthday and right from the word go started training him on susans methods and yes he has his days where he is a typical teenager but 95 percent of the time he is now crazy about the reward zone and to him there is nothing more intresting than his handler except his new girlfriend but after 2 months training he was remarkable and now that he has reached old enough to compete in agility he is totally killin it taking out most of the classes hes in but anyway long story short ive seen this work first hand and is unbelivably good and not just for pups but older dogs too i rescued a border collie form our animal shelter 17 months ago and for the first 13 months had a disaster trying to get her confidence and drive back as she was beaten so badly by her previous owners that she would cower at the sight of anything moving and since starting susans methods in febuary i am now able to play ruff love with her get her through obediance start agility and even teach her to tug for the first time and even with another dog so susan thankyou so much your methods truly work and without them i dont know where i would be with my millie milkshake jd so thankyou
Today I am grateful for your post on training without violence.
In our morning paper a local trainer was arrested for physically abusing his dog and some of the less educated comments suggested a strong/stubborn/potentially dangerous dog requires physical corrections to maintain your “alpha” status. Needless to say I totally disagree and it was very upsetting to me to read this article.
It could not have been better timing to hear a voice of reason and gentleness. Thanks!
Yvonne
Probably your best blog entry EVER! Certainly my favourite!!!
I’m gonna share your thoughts everywhere, those are ideas worth spreading!
Oh yes the possibilites Susan…they are what keeps me wanting more training information and keeps me coming back to SY 😉 GREAT POST!
And I think you should know that the little man has made my top 10 list (okay a bit more then 10…but you get the idea) of dogs I have fallen in love with….and him I only got to meet a couple of times 🙂
You are doing great things with him, and sharing great things with the world through him!
Mary Muliett
14 years ago, I was the first one in this area to begin to use ‘clicker’ training.Boy, was it ( and STILL is ) a huge uphill battle. I heard it all; ‘you can’t put any TITLES on a clicker trained dog’, ‘yeah, that might be fine for PETS’, …etc etc..but I ignored them, and carried on. However, until finding Susan, I was guilty of ‘mixing’ in some aversives with my positives. Since joining ‘Recallers 2.0’, and continuing on to Puppy Peaks, I am really working to remove those few mild aversives I was clinging to. It’s work, I’m not gonna lie. But for the first time since getting into Min Pins, 16 years ago, I am now able to walk some of them without leads! ( the rest are works in progress, and are better than they have ever been!!) There are a few trainers in the area who claim to be ‘positive’.They still use choke/prong collars, and other not-so-fun techniques, they still believe in being ‘alpha’ and ‘pack leader’….*sigh*. So, c’mon, people, STEP UP. take the Do-land challenge. You won’t regret it. I sure haven’t; I AM a better trainer, MY DOGS are happier, and, by extension, so am I.
This is so interesting to me as I was raised in a loving family that had no physical corrections. Also, my Dad is a college football coach who does things differently than traditional football coaches. What is different about the way my Dad coaches is that he does not verbally abuse and they do not use physical contact in practice. People can not believe that he can do the winning he does in this type of environment, but he does this year after year. He is the winningest football coach (college & pro) and he was inducted into the college football Hall of Fame just before Paterno and Bowden were inducted. He reminds me of a brilliant dog trainer (like you Susan), who actually makes practices short and fun. His players LOVE (rather than dread) coming to practices. He is EXTREMELY detail oriented and breaks down each play and builds them until the execution is perfected (shaping?). He does this without blocking dummies, without whistles, without yelling, without verbal abuse, without physical contact between the defense and offense. But he has been doing this since the mid 50’s and doing it very successfully. The football games draw HUGE crowds (for Division III) and fans and the entire atmosphere on game day is magical. He’s made it that way by doing things that he believed were right and making it fun. Most injuries happen during contact in practice – so why would you want to lose some of your best players in practice when there is a different approach? Most coaches won’t look at what he does because they think it won’t work…but his players that go on to become coaches also use this same approach and they are all extremely successful – one of them is Bud Grant’s son, Mike, who coaches a powerhouse high school (Eden Prairie) in Minnesota and they are state champions more times than not.
Here is recent campaign by Ralph Nader that addresses the aspect of “abuse” in coaching where he mentions my Dad (John Gagliardi):
http://leagueoffans.org/2011/07/27/ralph-nader-says-it%E2%80%99s-time-to-bench-tyrannical-coaches-in-sports/
Here is the report:
http://www.leagueoffans.org/pdf/Manifesto3.pdf
I think we all truly know what is right if you trust your feelings. I find that as I mature as a dog trainer and commit to training with reinforcements, I am just a happier and calmer, more focused person. I feel balanced in my lifestyle and my dog training. Since I was brought up in this type of environment, it is more natural for me to move in this direction as a dog trainer.
Thanks for bringing this up. I hope this doesn’t come across as bragging or promoting my Father, I just think the analogies between what you are discussing in this blog and my Dad’s approach are so very interesting.
Thank you for sharing. People like your father and Susan, who work for a world where people respect each other and the other living beings on the planet, and hold high expectations for what is possible, are true gifts. Stories like yours make my heart sing and encourage me to reach for the best in myself (There are good guys out there, and I can be one of them!).
@Nancy, they broke the mold when they made your dad! What a great coach and what a great influence on so many young men.
Thanks so much for sharing, Nancy! I often bemoan the fact that it still seems so hard to convince so many people that animal training can be accomplished without force and aversive corrections. It’s even more astonishing that in this day and age, there are bastions of learning that still feel pain and intimidation are necessary, and definitely an eye-opener to me that someone like your father swam against the current, especially so many years ago, and was successful, and it STILL hasn’t changed things overall!
thanks for sharing! as a violin teacher I want to show my students the joy in music and you can’t show joy when you are belittling your student.
What a great story! Your dad sounds like a brilliant man! It is really great to read about people like this. There is a teacher whose name I cannot remember, but he is also a brilliant man who teaches kids in tough school districts quite successfully. He wrote a book titled “Teach Like Your Hair’s on Fire” or something very similar to that. I heard him interviewed on NPR when his book first came out, and he sounded a lot like how you described your dad. I wish that more people would follow these methods of teaching/coaching/training. I think young people would have a much easier and more enjoyable time getting through school, and a lot more animals would remain in their families, rather than being dumped in shelters for behavior problems. Thanks for sharing your story, Nancy!
Thank you Susan for showing me the POSSIBILITIES. My 8 year old Portuguese Water Dog is doing more things now because of your guidance than he has ever before AND he & I are having fun – because he is focused and is thinking.
I think I’ve been “ya but” person for before and now I’m a YA! and if the dog isn’t getting it – I’m thinking that I’m not reinforcing fast or well enough – sure enough – when a go back a step and break it down more – my YA! comes back.
So appreciate you and all you do –
Margo & Morgan Fournier
“Just because someone has tried and failed at “food only” training in the past doesn’t mean the “method is flawed” please entertain the possibility that the application of the dog training was the only thing that was flawed. ”
Just recently attended a Bob Bailey seminar (with Parvene Farhoody); so thrilled to finally meet him in person. Along with his “simple, not easy” quote, I am enamoured with “if it’s not working, you’re not doing it right”.
Oh, and by the way Susan, your graphs are showing that the need for punishment is INCREASING as the access to reward increases. The line should have a negative slope, i.e. at 0 on the x axis, no access to reward, the need for punishment is at its highest, and is decreasing as you go from left to right. Sorry, it’s the scientist in me. 🙂
No Sharon, I know my graph isn’t perfect but the line is where i want it showing that when no control over rewards exist the need for punishment is increases. What it should read is as the “untrained” dog’s access to reinforcement increases the need for punishment also increases. Because once a dog has been trained, as Swagger demonstrates, you can have access to reinforcement everywhere and the dog will just be showing off all of his good choices!
I might be tempted to change the x-axis labels to something like “Reinforcers uncontrolled by the trainer”… or something that implies that the reinforcement is occurring without appropriate criteria and controlled/accessed by the dog not provided by the trainer.(tempted to put determined her but the dog always determines what is reinforcing 🙂
Yeah Heather, I struggled with out to label it for clarity, I am sure there is something better but hopefully the point isn’t lost:)
The graphs make sense to me. Free access to reinforcement = increased need for punishment. Controlling access to reinforcement = little or very little punishment.
Excellent post Susan. You really make a difference in my training style.
Agree with Sharon — the graph is messed up and if you are trying to read and understand it, it makes no sense when coupled with your words.
You need to relabel the axes or change the slope.
Right now the graph clearly states (to anyone capable of reading a graph) that as access to amazing reinforcement increases, need for punishment increases. There’s no getting around that interpretation.
@Kari, that is what I want the graph to show. An “untrained” dog who has been given free access to all the reinforcement he wants and he knows he can have at anytime can not effectively be trained only with reinforcement because he has all he wants — why would he look to you. With reinforcement off the table the only thing left is punishment. Which is what the graph shows . The “Ruff Love” dog gets virtually no free access to amazing reinforcement therefore the need for punishment is low because reinforcement FROM YOU will be so greatly appreciated by the dog.
I hope that makes it clear for everyone.
@Kari. Kari, you are talking about my puppy. At ten months, he pulled away from me and ran down another dog. He did not bite and responded to a “down” command and then came to me. He was at the “doggy shrink” two days later and we were working on solutions. Obviously, this dog could not be given access to situations that stimulated his prey drive until he had more impulse control. What the behaviorist correctly diagnosed was that the dog was giving me “position” but not relaxation when he was stimulated. He was then shaped to learn to relax and I worked with him for two weeks AT HOME in a controlled enviroment before we even walked down the street. As I was able to cue him to relax, we started back out into the world (and this included going to trial environments with my other dog, etc.) to continue to work on his behavior. He now controls himself. Yes, this was not “immediate”–but this high-drive dog lost none of his drive or willingness–only his lack of impulse control. He has no fear or tension around movement, noise, barking, etc….i.e. he is trustworthy. Dogs that are forced to repress impulse are dogs that are very likely to explode at some point. And they usually do not retain confidence. The “immediate” is not always the best solution.
That’s the way I had seen it Kari. However, now with the additional discussion, I see that it is showing what Susan wants it to show; I do think that re-labeling the x-axis would make it crystal clear.
Yes, I think relabelling the graph as “Amazing SELF reinforcement” would make it totally clear and would let the graph stand alone. Currently you need both the graph and the text to make sense of it. The text does clear up the confusion.